Wadding Around Parachute? TIP

Looking over the new Estes Vogel instructions:

I was curious about the large booster recovery.

A "hatch" releases the parachute at staging.

Notice there are a couple of pieces of recovery wadding protecting the top of the parachute from the flame of the sustainer motor.

 

In my single stage models, I've been using extra wadding wrapped around the bottom of a parachute for years. This is in addition to the wadding already in the tube.

Pictured at the right is red Quest wadding, crinkled up for easier use.

TIP: As extra insurance to prevent any hot spot melts -
Cut a piece of sheet wadding down to about 3 1/2" square. Set the low end of the packed chute in the center of the square.  Wrap the low end of the parachute with the wadding. Wrap the sides of the wadding up the chute.

It is important to cut the wadding square smaller. You want the wadding sheet to peel away from the parachute at ejection.

Who Is Hoarding Toilet Paper?

If you run out - 
Once in an emergency I used this treated toilet paper for it's original intended purpose.

If you use recovery wadding for toilet paper you won't get super powers - but for an hour your hind end will be flameproof!

Dryer Sheet Wadding?

From the Facebook Estes Model Rocketry page:

Mark E. Johnson asked:
"Has engine thought about using crepe paper party streamers for recover wadding? Back in the day I don’t think it was fire proof/resident but these days I’m thinking it might be.

Matt Matt posted:
I like leftovers on the field from previous launches, but my go to is dryer sheets from the dollar store. Perfect for the application.

I use flame resistant crepe paper wadding all the time.

EDIT UPDATE: I just found two (old) dryer sheets. I didn't even know I had them. Single guys don't use fabric softener sheets, that's a married thing.
Anyway - I held a match under the dryer sheet and it easily melted! It didn't go up in a flash, but it did melt. Matt Matt may be using a different brand than I just tried.

Estes Wadding Test

In a recent comment, Daniel (the Rocket Noob) wrote:

"Well, I can't attest to White Cloud's usefulness as wadding, but Estes wadding will also burn really well if you touch a match or lighter to it - as I learned when I did a demonstration at Rocket Camp.

"See? Wadding won't burn if you... Oh! Oh, gosh!" I said, stifling my desire to swear as I threw it on the floor and stomped it out.

That was last year. One of my returning kids kept bringing it up this year."

I also did a burn test recently of several different Kevlar sources. The Apogee shock chord burned a lot more easily - and more vigorously - than the Kevlar kite string I got from emmakites.com.

So, the match test may not be a good indicator. You might need to do a static test in a tube. I tried soaking cotton balls in water with baking soda, as I'd heard baking soda would make paper towels into wadding. The cotton balls turned out stiff and didn't stay fluffy like I'd hoped, so they weren't superior wadding, but they definitely did the job with no flames or even scorch marks like you sometimes get on the Estes wadding."

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I touched a lit match on some Estes wadding this morning. I tried to light two different pieces from two different packages.

The first piece lit on fire, it was a slow burn and was put out in water.

The second piece from another package was blackened but didn't catch fire.

There might be some inconsistencies between wadding packages. Estes made their wadding in the US for many years. I believe production went to Mexico for a while and is now made in China.

Wadding Squares Getting Smaller?

Here's something I noticed when opening up a bulk pack of Estes C6-5 engines - 
The new box says there are 72 squares  of recovery wadding included, not the old count of 75. I know what you're thinking: "Come on, it's just three squares!"
In the engine bulk pack there were six small wadding packs as opposed to the old single large package. In the picture the new smaller size package is set over the old size wadding.
The old, larger wadding is made up of 4 1/2" squares. The new wadding is 4" square.

This won't  make that much difference in how effective the wadding is in use. It's just smaller -

At a club launch, Lonnie B. brought this up when we were talking about recovery wadding:

Toilet Paper Is Getting Smaller 
For the full article, CLICK HERE
Squares are shrinking and there's not as much on the roll

(NEWSER) – Does your toilet paper seem smaller to you these days? Well, you're not crazy: It is. As the Washington Post reports, toilet paper squares used to be 4.5 inches by 4.5 inches. Nowadays, they're up to a half-inch narrower, shorter—or both. (Apparently, it's enough of a difference to be noticeable to the naked eye: Last week, a reader wrote in to the Los Angeles Times complaining about a "26% reduction in surface area.") And, as Consumer Reports noted last year, the cardboard tubes are also increasing in diameter as the number of sheets per roll decreases. But the price is not falling: In 2012 and 2013, the unit price rose about 2% per year. (In 2013, the Wall Street Journal explained that the process of selling less paper for the same price is known as "desheeting.")

"A standard roll is much smaller than it used to be, so now they're selling double rolls. So, without being scientific, I think a double roll is pretty well equivalent to what a standard roll was perhaps a decade ago," a research analyst tells NPR. One not-as-obvious reason for the TP trend is that companies that make toilet paper also make products like paper towels and napkins. Though toilet paper is essential—Americans are estimated to use an average of 46 sheets per day, and that's probably not set to change any time soon—paper towel and napkin sales are falling. In particular, large companies, like offices and restaurants, are moving toward things like air dryers or, the analyst explains, rationing how many napkins they dole out to customers. But they'll never cut down on their TP orders in an attempt to ration that particular product, so orders will remain steady. (As for those hand dryers, you might not want to use them.)
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Last year I was replacing a toilet paper holder in my guest bathroom. The holder center tube looked too long when the toilet paper roll was put on. This article explains a lot.
Companies that manufacture toilet paper certainly didn't publicize this.
Imagine that - "You get less for more money!"

Untreated TP Wadding?

On a Facebook Rocketry Page, a question was brought up about wadding alternatives.
Dog barf and even lettuce leaves were suggested. I put in my vote for crepe paper.

One post was about a hobby store owner who recommended to use toilet paper, but it had to be White Cloud brand. According to the store owner, it would protect your plastic parachute or streamer just as good as the treated Estes wadding.

T.P. was running low at home and saw the White Cloud brand at WalMart. I picked up a package.
When I got home I ran water in the sink and touched a match on a corner of the paper.
It lit and burned, then burned some more. No flame resistant properties here!

The toilet paper will now be directed to its original purpose.

Crepe Wadding Update

Wadding alternatives come up on the forums and on rocketry FaceBook pages. I've done quite a few blog posts about cheaper wadding in the past.

Lonnie B recently wrote:
"I finally made use of the bag of yellow crepe paper wadding you gave me a couple of years ago. I was getting fed up with how my new 'chutes were quickly getting burned, even with extra sheets of conventional wadding, so I tried yours and it was fantastic! It made a perfect seal that better protected the 'chute. I would love to purchase/find/make more."

He added the link on an old blog post is no longer valid. (I've gone back and fixed the link.)
Here's the new link to Crepe Paper wadding SHEETS -
CLICK HERE
Notice I specified SHEETS. These are 20" X 7.5' sheets. This is not the party rolls you find at the Dollar Store. Party rolls do work as wadding but are not very wide.
(Note: Some party rolls might not be flame resistant! Test them to see before using them in your rockets. You don't want to have flaming paper raining down on the field!)

I prefer cutting 4" squares, smaller than the 4.5" treated toilet tissue squares from Estes. Crepe Paper wadding is stiffer than the Estes and is easier to pack when it is slightly smaller.
TIP: With the crepe paper wadding (and the stiff Quest style) you crush up the sheets into a small ball then reopen it before going in the rocket. This puts many creases in the paper and softens it up making for easier packing and a better seal.

The colored crepe paper is easy to find on the field. Usually the first piece (closest to the top of the engine) is burnt and not reusable. The pieces right above it look like new and can be used again.

If you buy crepe wadding from the CrepePaperStore.com you should buy more than one package or the shipping charges will offset any savings over buying Estes or Quest wadding.

Right now, the crepe packages are $1.12 each.
Buy 5 packages for $5.60
Add shipping at $8.05 (Florida destination)
Total for 5 packs is $13.65
You can get more than 100, 4" squares from each package
Pictured above is the Canary Yellow color crepe paper.

Estes list price for wadding is $5.49 or 7 cents a square! (No shipping charges added)
Cut your own Crepe Wadding (with shipping charges) is under 3 cents a square!
(Even less if you buy more packages to offset the shipping charges.)

Wadding Wrap TIP

In a previous post I mentioned that I wrap a square of wadding around the low end of a rolled parachute before sliding it into the body tube.
This was just extra protection from the ejection charge.

I wanted to clarify that I use a smaller square of wadding, maybe 3 inches square. The smaller sized square allows the parachute to open easier.
If the wadding were close to or over the top of the parachute it might prevent it from opening up!

MicroMaxx Wadding Tip

Sometimes you have to pack a very small bit of wadding in a MicroMaxx sized model.
Rolling the wadding between two fingers gives you a roll of paper, the ends going to a point.

I cut the end points off, from both sides.





You end up with a small cylindrical "piston" that gives a good seal inside the tube.

MicroMaxx ejection charges are't very powerful.
This piston has a flat bottom and is more easily ejected.

Wadding Test - DONE!

I started the wadding test on April 24, 2014 to see if different types were biodegradable.
Estes TP, Quest Parade Pomp and Dollar Store crepe paper wadding pieces were taped to the arm rests of my patio chairs.
On the right how the Quest wadding looked on the first day.
The three styles of wadding were exposed to the elements - sun, heat, humidity, wind and plenty of rain.

The Estes wadding was the first to go. In a few days it had broken up and blown away. The crepe paper lasted a few days longer, but still broke down and was gone.

In the above picture, the Quest piece on the left blew off and couldn't be found. The piece on the right held strong.

Here's that same piece from the right side on August 24, four months later.
It's faded, feels thinner and is starting to tear but still retains it's square shape. It feels almost like a very thin sheet of plastic.
The Quest Wadding is degradable, but it takes a long time to break down.

Wadding Test Part 4

I arrived back home from Mexico on July 1.
Here's how the Quest Pomp Wadding looks after being exposed to the outside elements in my open patio since April 24, 2014 - CLICK HERE
One piece of the Quest wadding had torn off the arm of the chair right where it was taped on. The second piece is still intact.
The blue color has faded over the past two months but is not breaking down.
The square shape is still pretty sharp!

UPDATE: Today is July 16 and the Quest wadding is still taped my my patio chair.
This morning we had heavy rain. The wadding is almost like a thin plastic sheet. The edges are folded under and the tear in the lower left is longer.

Biodegradable? Eventually. This piece of wadding has been outside exposed to the elements for almost three months.

On May 30 schoolyard launch, I left some Quest wadding tucked into the corner of a brick wall. It was pretty well hidden.
I went to check on it a few days back and it was gone.
I'm sure the maintenance guys picked it up and threw it away.

Ongoing Wadding Test

Here's the Quest parade pomp wadding still taped to my patio chair.
The test was started on April 24 HERE with two pieces of wadding taped to my outdoor patio chair. This picture was taken on May 30, 2014.

The two pieces of light blue wadding continue to get lighter, bleached by the direct sunlight exposure.
The square on the left show two very small tears, one below the clear tape holding it on the arm of the chair.

After the May 30 morning launch I picked up all the wadding at the soccer field site.
Four out of the five models launched used purple Quest wadding. Each model only needed three squares each.
Only the lowest piece of wadding (closest to the engine) was charred.
The other pieces looked like new and could be used again.

I opened up the un-burnt crumpled pieces.
I found a place to leave them where they shouldn't be found or disturbed. Four squares were loosely set in the bushes against a brick wall.

The wadding will be exposed to rain, heat, humidity and sunlight.
I'll check these when I return around the first of August to see if they have broken down.

They'll probably be picked up by birds and end up in a nest.

Unscientific Wadding Degrade Test, Part 2

The wadding degrade test was started on April 24, HERE
On the right is the blue Quest wadding on the first day of the test.
The Estes toilet paper wadding squares had broken down in a week.
I left the yellow crepe wadding and Quest parade pomp wadding outdoors, taped to my patio chair armrest when I was away on the cruise.
I returned yesterday on May 16, 22 days after starting the test.

The yellow crepe paper wadding was gone, but the Quest wadding was still here.
It has faded in the sunlight but doesn't show any real signs of breaking down.
It's been just over three weeks, I'll leave it out a while longer.

Unscientific Wadding Degrade Test

I'm no scientist - this is certainly not the best test for how wadding breaks down in the field. It was simply done out of curiosity.
Estes toilet tissue wadding, Quest parade pomp wadding and flame resistant crepe paper was used. I don't normally use the dog barf style wadding.

On Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 
I taped two pieces of each kind of wadding to the chairs in my outdoor patio.
This would expose them to direct and indirect sunlight, temperature, humidity and rain.
Last week the temperatures in Central Florida went into the 90s. Humidity is also on the rise.
On the far arm rest is the off-white Estes toilet tissue wadding.
The closest yellow squares are the crepe paper.

On another chair is two squares of the Quest parade pomp wadding.
Parade pomp paper is used to decorate parade floats.

One week later on May 1, 2014 - 

We've had some big rain yesterday.
Here's whats left of the Estes wadding squares.
Both pieces have broken off the tape that held it to the chair.
Below on the cement are the small, broken down pieces of the toilet tissue. The Estes tissue now looks like wet dog barf style wadding.

Here's what I found most interesting.
The yellow crepe paper has started to break down. After a week in the outside elements you couldn't use it in a model. It would break up in your hands.
The Quest wadding however looked almost new!
After the rain the wadding is now dry and has retained its original form.
It might not be flame resistant anymore but it certainly isn't breaking down - yet!

I always make a point of picking up wadding after a session at the schoolyard.
At monthly group launches I pick up wadding if I see it.
It's a good thing the Quest wadding is a bright color. You can easily find and pick it up in the field.

Wadding Tips

I have used "Dog Barf" wadding before with good results.
The dog barf is many shredded pieces of flame resistant treated paper. There is the chance of ejection charge "blow-by" especially in larger body tubes.

I have a LOT of extra wadding! I pick it up and reuse it when I can.
Usually only the bottom piece (closest to the engine ejection) is burnt and can't be reused.
I won't pay retail for some treated toilet paper.
I've bought Parade Pomps online and cut up my own flame resistant crepe paper.

The Quest wadding looks to be parade pomp paper. It's stiffer than the Estes toilet paper wadding and a little harder to pack.

To make the Quest style wadding easier to work with:
Before putting it into the body tube, take one square roll it between your hands into a tight, small ball.
Re-open the wrinkled ball and the crumpled paper will be easier to pack.

On smaller tubes (BT-50 and smaller):
Recrumple the wadding into a ball the right diameter to seal the inside tube sides.
On larger diameter body tubes:
Put your fingertip in the center of the square and press into the top of the tube. The loose sides of the wadding will automatically give a pretty good seal on the inside body tube walls.

Here's a square of the the crepe wadding I cut from a sheet to about 4" square.
It's stronger than the Estes wadding and won't rip down the perforated  lines.

I'm using a tamping tool to push the wadding farther down than I could reach with my finger.
It's just a dowel with engine casings friction fitted over the end.

I'm not really tamping the wadding into a tight wad, just insuring the the sides are sealed and the wadding is far enough down the body tube.
I can also insert the dowel end through the engine mount and push up and raise the wadding piston. If it slides pretty easily from the bottom I know the wadding will eject.


A final protective measure:
One square of wadding is wrapped around the low end of the parachute.
This is a extra measure of protection but not a guarantee of no melted spots on the parachute.
Parachute burn spots happen to all of us.

DIY Estes Style Wadding!

Apastusak on TRF found a link on how to make your own recovery wadding.
"Just found this on instructables.com
http://www.instructables.com/id/Model-rocket-recovery-wadding/
Not much to it, except a little time and patience.

Saucer, Wax paper
Toilet paper (as many sheets as sheets of wadding you want)
Borax or baking soda 
Water, Measuring cup, Spoon

The TRF posts that followed basically said: "Why bother when there is crepe paper and dog barf?"

Making your own tissue paper wadding seemed like a little too much effort. Still, it's another option.

I make my own from flame resistant crepe paper cut into 4" squares:
http://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2011/02/tip-budget-wadding.html
http://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2013/02/wadding-alternatives-tip.html
or the extra Estes and Quest wadding pulled from bulk packs of engines.

After a flight session, I pick up wadding (clean up the field) and reuse it when I can. 
It's the piece of wadding closest to the engine ejection that's burned through. The upper pieces are rarely burnt.

Permanant Wadding?

Here's an idea I saw on TRF from Aleks in Slovenia:

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?46420-Permanent-wadding

Wadding Alternatives TIP

I'll need to buy some wadding soon and don't want to pay $5.49 retail for 75 squares of Estes wadding!
That treated toilet paper will cost 7 cents per 4 1/2" square!

Five years back I bought some yellow crepe paper sheets on clearance from a small craft store. The crepe paper is flame resistant. The sheets were cut into 4 1/2" squares.
Granted, the crepe paper is stiffer than the Estes T.P. wadding but I've gotten very good at packing it.

I went online to check prices.
Quest style wadding (the purple squares on the left) are much like the parade float "pomps tissue squares" sold HERE
The squares are 5 1/2" square, Larger and stiff to pack, these do work well if installed correctly.
From Stumps Party, one package of 300 pieces is $2.99. With $8.95 shipping, it comes down to 4 cents a square.
If you buy four packs (1,200 squares) the price ends up being under 2 cents a square.

The crepe paper sheets are available HERE

NOTE: These are older prices from an older blog post.
A large folded sheet is $1.07 for one package. 80, 4 1/2" squares can be cut from each sheet.
With $7.00 shipping the cost is 10 cents per square.
But if you buy four packs - 
The cost (with shipping) is 3 cents a square! 

I've had great luck with the crepe paper wadding. The old Centuri Stellar wadding was crepe paper.
After a launch it's easy to find and pick up. I re-use quite a bit of it.
I used to buy it from www.crepepaperstore.com, but their stock is very low. Try the Blick link from the previous paragraph. 

Before anybody reminds me about "dog barf" or cellulose insulation - 
I've used dog barf in the past. I know it's the cheapest way to go in large diameter models. I rarely fly models larger than a BT-60 diameter.
I'm concerned about ejection charge "blow-bys". The dog barf doesn't stay in a sold mass when ejected and easily breaks up. The crepe paper can be compacted a bit and stays in one piece.
One way to go is to lay in a sheet of wadding, followed by dog barf and then another piece of wadding.

Wadding Tamp Tool Part 2

By using this tool you can gauge how deep the wadding will go inside the tube.

Here I'm holding the dowel outside the body tube to the depth I want the wadding to go.




Hold that position on the dowel and push the wadding in to the depth you were holding on the outside of the body earlier.



If you have pushed the wadding in too far, you can push the dowel in from the back and move the wadding forward.
The 5/16" diameter dowel will slide right through the inside of the engine block.

Don't pack your wadding too tightly!
This tool is used to improve the seal on the inside wall of the body tube, not for smashing the wadding into a tight block that won't eject!

Wadding Tamp Tool Part 1

I usually use a dowel to get wadding down inside a body tube. I'll try to pack it down a bit to get a better seal but still leave it loose enough to blow out easily enough at ejection.

The dowel I kept in my range box did an adequate job, but I decided to make a simple tool that could work better in many different sizes of body tubes.

For BT-5 models:
This is a 5/16" diameter dowel about 12" long.
A few wraps of tape were added and an expended 13mm casing was friction fitted on top of that.
The nozzle was kept intact on the "tamping" end.

For larger models up to a BT-60 diameter tube:
A clean 18mm engine casing was slid over the 13mm casing.
I had to remove a paper layer from the inside of the 18mm casing to get a good fit over the 13mm casing.
At the front, a thick card stock disk was glued on for a flat tamping surface.

Don't glue the 18mm casing onto the 13mm casing. This way you can slip the larger casing on or off for different diameter models.

Here's an example of some crepe paper wadding with the sides tamped into a more even "piston".
I couldn't have gotten this side seal on the body tube walls without using the tool.

Don't use this tool to mash the wadding too tight in the tube! Use it to get a better seal on the body tube sides.