Hard Landing - No Real Damage Pictures

I received an email from Spencer E:

Chris, 

"I’d like to put a plug in for applying CA adhesive to the ends of body tubes during construction that I first learned about on your blog. My preferred launch location is a long and wide salt flat next to the Great Salt Lake in Utah. The salt forms a ¼’’ hard crust with compacted wet sand and muck beneath. It’s not uncommon to pop a fin off even with the softest of landings. 

This past weekend I launched my BT-55 Tomahawk D-Region with a D-12 and near apogee the nose cone ejected but the parachute remained wedged in the tube. After the rocket completed its arc it descended straight down with the nose flapping against the side and did a “salt dart” into the crusty salt and sand. Instead of a crumpled or bent tube I found that the tube sliced right through the crust making it about an inch into ground. The end of the tube was filled with salt and wet sand much like a core sample. After removing the debris and wiping everything down there was some chipped paint but very little damage otherwise. I couldn’t believe it. Very lucky indeed. Thanks for the tip. 

Thanks, Spencer E

My response:

Hi Spencer,

You lucked out on that landing! Hard hits like that usually lead to some buckling of the tube.

The BT-55 is probably the strongest LPR body tube out there. The right balance of wall thickness and tube diameter.

A BT-70 or even a 101 tube is the same wall thickness as your BT-55. Those larger tubes feel weak to me.

I don't really apply CA glue around the tube lip for hard landings like yours, but no doubt it helped here!

I do a CA wipe for strength hoping it might prevent a zipper. The CE glue on the lip allows me to sand the tube edge flat and clean.

Thanks for writing and the pictures!

Filling a Full Decal Sheet

Here's a response to an email from Glen, he asked if I printed these on an "A4":

Hi Glen,

I wasn't sure what an A4 is!

I worked in a print shop for years and didn't use that term. We just said 8 1/2" X 11". I didn't work the press area.

I do print on a full size 8 1/2" X 11" sheet, but always fill the sheet with other stuff.

See Attached - there is decals for five different projects on that single sheet.

Decal paper os only about $1.00 a sheet, but I hate to waste it.

Sometimes a model will sit and wait for another model that'll need decals. I'd just rather do all the decals at once.

TIP: One thing I've learned about home print decals. On a white background, the black print areas aren't a total opaque black. It's almost a little transparent.

Also, white background decal paper isn't a total opaque white. On a red background,

the white layer looks slightly pink.

I use Corel Draw to do my decals. I've had experience as a graphic artist and that comes into play. The learning curve on a graphics program is involved.

Anything I send out is usually as a PDF. If I remember, I try to include a 1" square box for print reference.

Chris Michielssen 

www.oddlrockets.blogspot.com 

www.modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com

C11 Engines Needed -

An Email from Manuel Mejia, Jr:

Chris:

Driving around the well off parts of Orange, Seminole, and Lake Counties, it is easy to forget the amount of poverty there is in this region. Lake County is particularly poor. Unlike Orange and neighboring counties, Lake has not reaped the economic benefits of places like Disney. The Lake County students and families that I see everyday as an educator are among the poorest in the State of Florida.  Many receive food assistance as well as shop at Goodwill for clothing.

Forming a model rocket club in this county is a challenge due to the cost of rocket motors and the distance some kids have to travel to find a flying site. I am working on a YMCA/school based program at the school I teach at. To offset expenses, the kids are building rockets from household discards. One rocket that they will be building is a Saturn-V/Estes SPEV clone rocket that is based on 3" Pringles potato chip cans. The attached photos show what one of these rockets look like.

One issue that comes with using 3" diameter Pringles Cans is the fact that they are best lofted using C11-3 or C11-5 motors. A single, standard, summer camp A8-3 motor cannot lift rockets this size. As a result, I have been soliciting donations of C11-3 and C11-5 motors from the rocketry community. I have had some success with this. Students who would otherwise NEVER fly a model rocket will now start construction in 2017.

Anyone who wishes to donate to the motor pile, feel free to contact me.

Manuel Mejia, Jr.

Astatula, FLA, USA 

sfkeesuv@yahoo.com

An Email About Rockets and Family Tradition

Hi Chris,

We corresponded earlier this year as a result of comments I made about your Model Rocket Building Techniques segment of the NAR website.  I thought you might enjoy hearing about a “different” class of model rocket builder.

For the past thirteen years we have launched rockets at our family picnic in the fall that celebrates my wife’s birthday. The rockets now belong to the grandchildren. The event began with one rocket 13 years ago, and has grown to 14 this year.  Family members get to specify the colors they want the rocket to be while the children of friends pick from the group they see when they come.  I build enough to ensure that anyone who attends will get a rocket. Because they now occupy space on dressers, I have had to be more attentive to quality.

Here’s a summary of the techniques used on 7 Estes Alphas, 6 Estes Baby Berthas and 1 Estes Expedition:

·         Balsa parts treated with three coats of Elmer’s Carpenter’s Wood Filler, sanded after each coat
·         Fin fillets done using Titebond No Run, No Drip
·         Fuselage marked using aluminum angle piece
·         Tamiya acrylic paint (airbrushed)
·         Tamiya tape for masking
·         Three coats of primer
·         Three finish coats
·         All Estes standard parts including rubber shock cord and paper mount

On these low powered rockets we have never had a shock cord or mount fail.  The kids put in the wadding (with help) then put stickers on their rockets and then launch.  Because of the stickers, I prefer to buff the rockets with a paper “shop towel” after the final coat dries.  Hard to see in the attached photo but it gives them a nice semi gloss finish and the stickers stay on.  Thanks again for all of the tips. Attached is a photo of the six family rockets.

Can you imagine - 13 personalized model rockets and a launch at Rick's Wife's Birthday Party. A great tradition and something they'll always remember. Thanks for writing Rick!

Estes Saturn V Concern -

An email from Mike Rufener -

Hi Chris!

Just got a Saturn V (2157) and it has both vacuum formed fins, and hard plastic fins. I think I'll use the newer ones.

I also noticed that the "yellow engine spacer tube" is wrong. Estes uses these to push the thrust ring into the body-tube, then it is pulled out and discarded. It is 2.75-inch "D-size" and not the long "E-size". I'm worried anyone who follows the directions will have problems, and be left with a rocket that only flies on Ds!

Hope this is of interest!

Mike Rufener

__________________________________________________________________________

Thanks Mike!
Interesting that both the vacu-form and new plastic fins were included.

The new Estes instructions only mention the Yellow spacing tube (034997) being used to set the engine block. The yellow spacing tube is D engine size, only 2.75" long. 

Another Orange spacing tube (035005) E to D engine spacing tube is shown in the parts drawing but not shown in the engine mount assembly. This orange tube looks to be the length of the E12 engine at 3.75". I don't have the kit in front of me, this is just a guess.

Today (October 5, 2016) an update from YORF from John Boren at Estes

Saturn V Instruction Update

---

I know you guys are smart enough to figure this out when building the Saturn V but we supplied the shorter 24mm D size yellow spacer tube instead of the longer 24mm E size spacer tube. This tube is used to place the engine block in the correct location. We will correct this in future pack outs of the kit.

                                                                                                       John Boren

An Email From Larry Brown

I just got this email from Larry Brown. He must have ran across the blog doing a search of the X-24.
This letter gives some insight into the X-24 Bug development. As Larry explains, he did a lot of design work for Centuri.

Hello.

For 4 years, I worked in R&D at Centuri engineering with Grant Boyd as the divisional head.  The X-24 was one of my designs.

A few years prior, I worked in Quebec in a high-rise office building.  We're talking 1969.  I don't remember how many of us were involved, but somehow, we got into a contest to see who could make a Styrofoam coffee cup fly the best. I think it started by spiral-footballing them into trash cans and evolved (or degenerated) from there.  Finally, we were launching off the roof.  I was into model rocketry and interested in lifting bodies, so I tried adding tiny lumps of modeling clay to the nose and to a spot near the rim to see if I could get the cup to assume an angle of attack while falling.  Eventually, I had a flying cup... horrible by any standards other than maybe any other Styrofoam cups.

Pages blow off the calendar and I'm in Arizona at Centuri.  They had a rocket called the Point, a paper cone with no fins needed.   I started fooling with it and, thanks to a plastic nose cone (weightier than the Point's balsa) and some modeling clay at a point near the rim.  Sure enough, it went up kinda straight and sort of glided back down.  I stuffed a more triangular insert into it so the clay weight could offer more roll stabilization and added a paper cockpit and a paint job.  It worked even better.  So I suggested it as a product: MR's first lifting body.  The boss wanted fins.  I worried that any warping or misalignment of the fins would induce roll - and then it wouldn't glide.   Lost that one.  For NARAMs and local demos, I took to using only the tips of the cut-out fins, more for decoration than anything else.  Aerodynamically, the X-24 has less drag with no fins or maybe with tiny glue-ons to resemble pods of some sort.

If you're still fooling around with this, try making a card-stock pattern, printing up a bunch, and see for yourself.  It makes for a nice lesson in aerodynamics - and it doesn't need a huge field.

I was canned from Centuri during a purge by the parent company.  Had designed a bunch of rockets there, my favorites being the Space Shuttle and the Orion.  Worked 4 more years in business and have been an English and history teacher for the last 40 years.

Cheers,
Larry Brown, Hyannis, MA

I don't think Larry remembered we had met before. He gave me the tour of Centuri. Later I got to know the Centuri R&D guys at the NARAMs in 1975, 76 and 77.

Shuttle Mock-up Scrapped

An email from Manuel Mejia, Jr. 

Now I have seen just about everything on the road:

Off SR 528 just before you reach the Indian River to go to Cape Canaveral and Cocoa Beach on Merritt Island, there is a marine junkyard.  Resting at the site is a tour ship that used to travel the St John's Rover from Sanford (the Rivership Romance). It was a an old Great Lakes packet boat that was deemed too rusted by the US Coast Guard to be usable so it was sent to the Breakers.  Both vessels can be seen from SR 528.

Next to it is the USS Intrepid, the Shuttle Mockup that was next to the Astronaut Hall of Fame.  It too is off to the breakers.

It is a sad metaphor for the US Space Program.  Pity, I wonder if the British Science Museum is aware of this junkyard find.  It will not be there for very long.

Manuel Mejia, Jr.

Astatula, FLA, USA

Manuel just followed up with this email:

I received word from Britain that they may want to take the Shuttle and put it on display in Lencolnsire at the British Space Center.

A Quest Magnum Update

An email from Daniel Petrie - 

Hi, Chris.
I wanted to tell you a few things about my Quest Sport Loader in case you wanted to add them at the end of your series.

If I read your posts correctly, you got your Sport Loader a while ago. I bought mine just late last year, and it seems there have been a few changes to the kit.

First of all, the fins must have recently been redone. They are now laser cut instead of die cut, and there are not extras from an old kit. Also, you don't have to cut your own launch rod standoff any more - it's included in the balsa sheet.

The egg capsule is another change. It now comes in two pieces, so you don't have to cut it apart - and the pieces are clear plastic. Interestingly, the instructions still tell you to cut the egg capsule apart, so it seems that has not been updated from the older version. I can tell you I was not sad to be able to skip that part of the build!

Aside from that, I haven't noticed any differences in the kit so far in your build. You are right about the motor tubes - they're thin. I should have changed them out for some Estes tubes.

You haven't addressed the decals yet, so I don't know if yours were different, but I can tell you these were my favorite waterslide decals so far. They were nice and sturdy, but still thin enough that they didn't stand out like a self-adhesive sticker. They went on really easily, and gave no indication that I was at risk of wrinkling them or getting them stuck to themselves. I wish Quest had more rockets with waterslides, and that they were like these.

Thought you might like to know. Love this rocket!

Daniel J. Petrie

The Rocket N00b

Building and Launching Rockets - A Beginner's Perspective

Blog:rocketn00b.blogspot.com

Twitter:@rocketn00b

Youtube Channel

The Rocket N00b Facebook Page

Here's a link to Daniel's Magnum egg launch video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ3ty6JzZHY

Thanks Daniel,

I appreciate the information.

My kits were probably three or four years old.

I saw the newer clear payload section (nose cone and adapter) on the Quest website parts page. Mine was black plastic.

It's good to see the fins have been updated, it made no sense to have the extra fins. That led me to believe they were left over from another kit.

Those yellow engine mount tubes work very well like an insulator in the Quest metric 20mm tubing. By themselves they are too thin.

My decal were thinner than normal, I had to be careful transferring them to the model. There was some tearing and chipping on the fin stripe decals. Quest does a lot of business with bulk buys for school groups. Most kids would have a hard time with water slide decals.

Email about NAR Website - Model Rocket Building Techniques

An email from Eric - 

Chris,
I read through the NAR 'Model Rocket Building Techniques' and it is nicely done.  As a recent BAR I will say it took me some time to sort out my confusion between CWF and FNF and Sanding Sealer.  Now that I finally bought the right CWF from Ace Hardware, it makes sense.
I *cannot* get the right CWF at my (in CA) Home Depot. Home Depot only carries the Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Filler MAX (http://tinyurl.com/klr9yaz) - which I bought, thinking it was the same stuff. Your article on NAR (I found this original posting via google [http://old.nar.org/HowToBuildAModelRocket/TheBestToolsPage2.html]) threw me off because it says "The new product is formulated for outdoor use."  The MAX product says interior/exterior - so I thought I was on the right track, but the MAX product is super grainy and hard to sand - that was a frustrating mess. Then I found your blog post "http://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2013/11/get-right-carpenters-wood-filler.html", which gave me the clue that I had the wrong stuff. I hunted down the right stuff at Ace. (no Lowe's near me)  The NAR website should show this picture.  The new CWF is *not* for outdoor use and as far as I can tell, and Elmer's no longer makes a tub of CWF with the green interior/exterior label that is shown in the NAR picture.  Also, Fill 'N' Finish should probably be changed to CWF throughout the NAR guide to help those BARs like me from searching high and low for the wrong thing. (BTW, I also checked my local Orchard Supply Hardware and they do not carry CWF - crazy). 

Eric

My response -

Thanks Eric, it's a good point.

I'll have to contact the NAR guys and replace that picture.

Here in Central Florida you can still find the orange lid CWF at ACE Hardware and WalMart.

The problem is, Elmer's seems to change their products every few months! Vendors (Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.) change their available Elmer's products.

Elmer's changed their white glue to the "New Stronger Formula" and now engine mounts and couplers can freeze up when installing . The new formula CWF "MAX" is another can of worms!

Glad you found the right filler!

Chris Michielssen
www.oddlrockets.com
www.modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com

New Engine Hook Retention Tape?

An Email from Gary Minton:
Hi Chris:

Where did you get your aluminum sanding block & the ultra fine grit self adhesive sandpaper?
I'm having a hard time finding them locally.

On another issue:
I'm a retired electro-mechanical engineer. I've used all kinds of tapes, adhesives and insulating materials. 
You might want to reconsider your use of (plastic) electrical tape on engine holders. It's adhesive allows creep and softens up under high heat. The tape also stretches. It's designed this way to allow it to conform to irregular surfaces and allow for future removal when changing electrical connections - not a good match for engine holders.
As you know, masking tape ages badly, gets brittle, loosens and tears. Not a good match either.
Earlier, I used masking tape but I sealed the edges with white glue. This helped a little.

Instead, give Kapton tape a try. It's what I use. It is high heat, has no creep and doesn't stretch. It's expensive, but at just a few inches per rocket, it doesn't cost much in that sense. Just goggle Kapton tape for sources. Let me know what you think.

Gary Minton

My response:

Hi Gary,

I got my Great Planes Easy touch Hand Sander from Hobbylinc:  CLICK HERE

The finest grit they make for the hand sander is 220.

You can cut pieces of 400 grit and spray the back with spray adhesive.

Thanks for the tip about the Kapton tape. I'll have to check that out.  

I use ST-7 tubing for engine mounts, it's thicker than a BT-20 and probably gives a little more insulation from the engine heat.

I never use making tape for engine hook retention anymore after cutting open a model that was a few years old. The old tape just flaked off!

I am aware of the electrical tape shrinking and the effects of heat on the tape.

I always do a 1 1/2 wrap over the engine hook. That puts two full wraps of tape on the hook.

Right now all my engine mounts are holding up pretty good with the black electrical tape.

I'll check into the Kapton tapes. I checked a website and they are good up to 500 degrees!

http://www.kaptontape.com/1_Mil_Kapton_Tapes.php

Pretty impressive.

Chris Michielssen 
www.oddlrockets.com 
www.modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com

Finished Models from Scott Johnson

An email from Scott,
Chris,

I read somewhere that you don’t get to see many of your creations completed, so I thought I show you two+.

In the picture below from left to right is:

·        Your Black Brandt VB – It came out great then for some reason I decided to edge the cut lines with Sharpie. In paper modeling that is done all the time to hide the white lines, but I think the images are more complex so it blends well. On the rocket with the color scheme it just shows the bleed a little bit. It’s flight ready with an ¼ A engine.

·        A regular mosquito from the Mega Mosquito pack – Ready with too loose with a ¼ A Engine.

·        A scratch built mosquito with MMX guts and streamer and your Mini Brute decals – Thanks for those.

·        A scratch built Quark, with MMX guts and streamer – you’ll note it only has three fins and not four like the original. That was so the MMX would be more effective in gaining altitude.

·        The Last two are Fliskits Do-Hickey and Pay Day – Do you know which paint I used on the payload portion of the last rocket?

Thanks for help, paint recommendations, decals and printouts with three out of six rockets in my mini fleet collection. In my larger fleet you helped with the AGM Striker and Reflector.

Ohh, I just grabbed the, “Estes Collectors Series MARS SNOOPER kit #2063” off e-Bay, which I know you did and will help me tremendously.  

Thanks again, 

Scott Johnson

Thanks Scott! I do appreciate the pictures.

Your finished builds look great. I'm glad the "Mini Brute" decals worked out.

I've only flown the Black Brant VB with 1/2 A and A engines so far. Stable and high.

I'll have to wait to launch my Mosquito. I'm ordering some 1/4A3-3t engines. Hobby Lobby doesn't carry them.

That looks like the Rusto Metallic on the payload section!

That Mars Snooper is a challenge. Good luck with all the shrouds and vanes!

Decal Soaking Questions

From the Odd'l Rockets Email box, a question - 

"Waiting to finish an Estes Mini-Max, with waterslide decals. You use the drop of liquid detergent in the water, which has worked for me. 
The Apogee site recommends using white glue in the soaking.  
apogeerockets.com/Advanced_Construction_Videos/Rocketry_Video_91. 
Your thoughts?"

My response:

I've never heard of using white glue in the soak water! 

This might work, but I've never tried it.

Decals from different vendors are so inconsistent, sometimes you can't move them once they are set down. 

I wouldn't want a tough to position decal to be any more sticky!

TIP: The inconsistency is sometimes the thickness of the clear topcoat. Too thin and the printer ink dissolves. Too thick and the decal ends up looking like a peel and stick. 

While I hate Krylon color paints, their clear acrylic spray still seems to be the best for clear coating a home printed decal sheet. Three coats (not too heavy) seems to be about right. It seals the printer ink and gives you the right thickness.

Home print decals are good, but never as great as a kit decal. Face it, you are not printing decals on a large press or silk screening. 

As Gus (Steve) on TRF once wrote: "They are a different animal." 

Most every source recommends using a very small drop of detergent soap in the soak water. 

It helps break up the surface tension in the soak water. Others say it helps the decal slide on the model surface.

On response on TRF tells you: "The decals are ruined because the drop of soap breaks down the adhesive on the decal."

I've never had a problem with the small drop of dish soap in the soak water. 

(Judging by the forum responses, many others haven't had a problem either.)

Wet the surface on the model with a drop of water where the decal is to go. Set the decal on the wet surface.

That water under the decal helps lubricate the surface for easier positioning.

TIP: If the decal can't be easily moved, use a wet brush to work some water into the edges. The soft brush will get some water under the decal without tearing the edges.

After the decal is in in position, don't rub over it with a paper towel. A thin decal could tear.

Roll a wet Q-tip over the decal to work out any air bubbles or water drops.

I don't brush Future acrylic all over a model to seal the decals. I've never had great results with brushing or spraying Future.

Now I dip a Q-tip in the Future and wipe off the excess. You won't need much of the Future to apply a thin, protective coat.

The wet (with Future) Q-tip is rolled over the decal and the edges.

I've never had decals peel or lift after this light sealing. 

Good Luck!

Chris Michielssen

Odd'l Rockets

FlisKits MMX Crayon Build Part 5A, Email

From: J. Brian Coyle
To: HANS MICHIELSSEN
Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 7:07 PM
Subject: Fliskits MMX Crayon

On today's blog You wrote:
"The print on the ends didn't really match up.
If it were drawn again I could probably get it closer."

Brians response:

Have looked at any Crayola's recently?   Their wrappers *never* line up!

I'd say mis-aligned is TRUE SCALE.  :-)

Thanks Brian, I'll sleep better tonight.

Letter from Nik Bergenske

Hi Chris,
I was feeling a little sentimental today after helping my son put together some space models - and it prompted me to google my dad's former business - Model Rocket Industries. I enjoyed reading your post and the details of your conversation with my dad are consistent with what I've heard when he's spoken of the 'good ol days.' I was in diapers around the time of the MRI/MPC transaction... I bought my son a small Quest kit a while back and Dad commented that the engines could have been made on his old machines ;) I would sure like to see quality hobbies like this gain more popularity these days and hope to encourage them more with my kids. Well, I just wanted to say thanks for sharing the info about MRI and happy holidays.

Best regards,
Nik Bergenske
p.s. I noticed you are in FL also (i'm in Sarasota).
reference: http://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2011/03/some-mri-mpc-and-avi-questions-answered.html

This picture shows Dianne and Myke Bergenske at NARAM 18, in Center Valley Pennsylvania, 1976　

Hi Nik,
Thanks for writing.
Last year I had a good conversation with your Dad and was surprised he remembered me!

Some of the first rockets I built were MRI kits.
I built a few AVI models for your Dad back in the 1970s. I understand they were used in some convention displays.
Your Father sent me many kits and a LOT of engines. Even after all these years, I still launch models using some of the remaining engines.
I finally met your Mom and Dad at the NARAM in Orlando back in 1975. I even have a picture of the them somewhere.

The original Quest engines were made in the USA using your Father's engine making machines.
Quest engines were then from Germany and more recently imported from China.
Not near the quality of your Dad’s rocket engines.
I understand those machines are now covered up, sitting in storage.

Thanks for stopping by the blog. Your Dad’s rockets and engines played a very important part in many lives!

All the best!
Chris Michielssen
www.oddlrockets.com

Rustoleum Response to Cottage Cheese Spray

Here's my email to Rustoleum after having bad luck with a batch of 2X Gloss White:

Dated: March 30, 2012
Product used for: Model Rocket finishing

I use 2X Painter's Touch to finish models. After two bad cans of Gloss white (shot out like cottage cheese!) things seem to be back to normal again.
I'm trying to find a way to clean the nozzle caps. The 2X paint is thicker and seems to clog up the nozzles before the can is 1/2 used.
Are replacement caps available?

Rustoleum's response:

Thank you for contacting Rust-Oleum Product Support. We are very sorry for the frustration you went through while using our products. We went ahead and shipped you some nozzles for the painter's Touch spray cans. Also If you can turn the cans upside down and read us off the numbers stamped on the can, we can at least reimburse you for those 2 cans.

Thank You
Armando

I'm curious how many replacement nozzles they send.
I can't find replacement caps anywhere online that match the cap profile.
Only one of the bad cans remain, the first bad can was returned and exchanged.
I'll send the numbers from the bottom of the bad can I have for a refund.

This doesn't replace a bad paint job - but all things considered, Rustoleum Customer Support is doing their job.

Rocket Mail from South Africa

Recently I received an Email from Heinrich in South Africa.
He came across my Estes Saturn V build when doing some image searches. I sent him the PDF scans of the shrouds and some downscaled plans.

Check out this paragraph regarding getting engines sent to South Africa:

"I am in South Africa and I am still trying to figure out a way to get the engines here. I had some Estes Rockets about 15 years ago and then it was much easier to ship the engines – now safety and security is a major thing.
I got 2 quotes of about $1500 to ship 6 engines to South Africa! So for now I am just building the models and will figure out a way eventually to get the engines here."

Kind Regards
Heinrich

Thanks for reading Heinrich!
And I thought it was hard to get engines into California in 1969!