White or Yellow Glue?

When I starting building model rockets in 1969, 

white glue was recommended in the Estes kit instructions - that was all we had in our house.

Centuri recommended white glue or their own "Superbond" yellow glue. Centuri Superbond was actually rebottled and relabeled Titebond.

When I got back into the hobby in 2005, I started back building with white glue. Over time, I switched over yellow glue. I still use white glue for carded rocketry where outside fillets are visible.

I copied the following information after an internet search:

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Key Differences Between White and Yellow Wood Glue

Setting/Working Time: Yellow glue sets faster (5-10 minutes) than white glue, making it better for quick clamping, whereas white glue allows for longer, more complex assemblies.

• Sanding/Finished Texture: Yellow glue dries harder and is much easier to sand without gumming up the sandpaper. White glue stays slightly softer and can become gummy, making it harder to sand properly.
• Heat Resistance: Yellow glue has higher heat resistance, which is beneficial when sanding, as the friction from sanders can cause white glue to soften and turn sticky.
• Cleanup and Water Resistance: Both clean up with water, but yellow glue is generally more water-resistant (often water-resistant rather than water-soluble) compared to white glue, which is generally water-soluble.
• Color/Appearance: Yellow glue dries slightly translucent (often a yellow-tinted amber) whereas white glue dries clearer.
• Application: Yellow glue is thicker, which helps with gap-filling, whereas white glue is often thinner and is commonly used for school projects or hobby work. 

Fabri-Tac Drying UP? TIP

My bottle of Fabri-Tac glue was drying out and quite thick. I could barely shake it down to the nozzle tip. When new, the glue is a bit thick, like the old plastic model cement I used in the 1960s.

One of the ingredients in Fabri-Tac is Acetone. The acetone breaks down and allow plastics to be joined. 

I simply poured a small amount of 100% acetone into the Fabri-Tac bottle and shook it up to mix.

Fabri-Tac is a great glue for joining plastic adapters to body tubes. It is not a good glue for a delicate Apollo or Mercury Redstone tower.

School Glues?

On TRF, the question came up about the difference between School Glue and regular White Glue. 

Some posts talked of LPR Model Rockets (A-C motors) being assembled using School Glue.

When I started building rockets in 1969, I used regular Elmer's Glue-All. 

Now I prefer yellow wood glues. I still use white glue on carded models because the visible glue fillets will dry clear.

Here's what I found online - so it's got to be true.

"School glue is a nontoxic and washable adhesive made for the classroom. It comes from a line of glues made with PVA or poly vinyl acetate. White glue is water-based and so is school glue. Because they are water-based, both white glue and school glue are not used for bonding heavy materials, metals or anything less porous than wood.

Made For Kids

White glue is used for bonding things like paper, cardboard and wood. It dries fast and can even bond fabrics. For use in schools, however, the glue needed to be more forgiving. School glue is washable and of a lighter strength than other glues in the white glue family to protect the desktops, clothing and other materials that would unintentionally come in contact with the glue. School glue is also nontoxic, although it does maintain a slight smell that the Elmer’s Glue company calls “acetic.”

Bonding Materials

School glue is strong enough to bond paper and lightweight paper products including cardboard. It can handle the projects that students create in the classroom. Macaroni pictures and string art are a few of those projects. However, school glue cannot handle the projects that many other white glues can. Bonding wood pieces, ceramics, and even glass are materials that would not hold a bond using school glue, but do respond to white glue.

Physical Traits

White glue is white in color and so is school glue. They are both thick, viscous liquids. School glue is thinner, more runny than white glue. School glue also dries white, while many of the white glues dry clear. Both glues dry quickly, but school glue may not bond heavier materials like wood, no matter how much pressure is applied.

Other Considerations

Some wood glues are white and not PVA-based. However, all school glue has the PVA to allow for the thin consistency, according to the Scale Model Guide. Both glues are easy to remove from the skin when dry. They peel right off. the glues also wash off with soap and water. Because white glue is much thicker, it does give some resistance when washing off."

References:

Elmers, “Material Safety Data Sheet,” Elmer’s Glue All.
Elmer’s, “Material Safety Data Sheet,” Elmer’s Washable School Glue.
Scale Model Guide, “All About Glue.”

I thought it was interesting that School Glues dry white, many White Glues dry clear.

Odd'l Rockets Birdie Fix

I haven't launched my Odd'l Birdie in a while. 

While removing a tight A10-3t motor, I pulled out the engine mount!

It had been glued in using epoxy, the only glue I thought would best adhere the BT-5 tube to the plastic Birdie interior.

On the left is the interior of the Birdie. On the right is the engine mount with the epoxy still at the top.

I went to my all-purpose glue for adhering plastic to a body tube, Beacon Fabri-Tac. I left the old epoxy in place.

A bead of Fabri-tac was placed inside the top interior of the Birdie.

The engine mount assembly was pressed into the Birdie making sure the launch lug was slipped between the ribs at the top of the body.

I let the glue dry before giving the engine mount a good tug. The bond seems strong!

It was loaded with an A10-3t for an upcoming launch.

Estes Asteroid Hunter #3224, Build, Part 24, Tricky Silver Detail Pieces

A positioning template is cut from the instruction sheet.

When set in place I traced a pencil line a little inside the template edges.

The paint was carefully scraped away staying inside the pencil lines. It is important that the plastic pieces cover these scraped areas.

I marked the inside edge of the piece to show where the Beacon Fabri-Tac glue should be applied - on the inside edge. You can't use a wide bead of glue, it might squeeze out the side and mar the finish.

This worked out better than I hoped.

All four detail pieces are very well adhered with no glue showing outside the edges.

The gloss silver is a good contrast over the flat gray body.

For The Love Of God . . .

I can't take credit for this Meme, Jim Zalewski (Jim Z's Plans) posted this.

Sometimes I cringe when a new "glue thread" is started on the forums. It always starts with the question: "What's the best glue to use on a rocket?"
Responses follow mentioning every glue you could possibly find at Home Depot. Remember when all we needed was a single bottle of Elmer's White Glue?


Before you take advice from one of the many posts -
Check the number of messages under their name and avatar. More messages usually means they've been in the hobby for a few years.
They've used the right glues, the wrong glues and probably know the difference.
Somebody with only 20 messages to their credit is usually enthusiastic about this new hobby, suggesting gluing on fins with super glue.

Which Glues for LPR Building? TIPS

On TRF. Alan R wrote:
I think the most asked glue question is: "What is the best glue".
The answer to that is "The one that works"

I only do low power stuff, short list:
Paper to paper - white glue or titebond
Paper to balsa - titebond or epoxy for higher stress loads
paper to fingers - CA
plastic to balsa - epoxy
plastic straws to paper - model cement
plastic to fingers - CA
balsa to balsa - titebond
balsa to fingers - CA
fingers to fingers - CA

Babar added:
I like this. I would add that EPOXY to fingers is NEVER a good choice.

EPOXY
CAUTION: Some people have an allergic reaction to Epoxy glues resulting in skin burns and blisters. Even if you haven't had a problem the first few times you use Epoxy, you could develop an allergic reaction from skin to Epoxy contact. 

Newer RED couplers can freeze in the wrong position using the "New Stronger Formula" white or yellow wood glues. Epoxy allows a smooth slip fit of an engine mount or coupler when joining two body tubes. 
TIP: Be careful - epoxy is slippery. The coupler or engine mount could continue to slide down inside the body tube if the tube is set vertically on end.

YELLOW WOOD & WHITE GLUES
Titebond and Elmer's Wood Glues are fine for Low Power Model Rocket construction.
I tend to use yellow wood glue for general building. 
If  I'm building a model with pre-printed "skins" (like a Centuri Vulcan or Quest X-30) I'll use white glue for the outside visible fin fillets. White Glue dries clear, Yellow Glue dries Yellow. 

PLASTIC GLUES
TIP: For assembling a Estes Mercury Redstone or Saturn V plastic tower - Use a Bottled Liquid Plastic Cement with the brush attached to the bottle lid . 
DON'T EVEN GO NEAR TUBE TYPE PLASTIC CEMENT! Never buy the Blue Tube non-toxic cement. Trust me, it won't hold. Everyone has had a bad experience with a "safe" plastic glue. Tube type plastic cements are not what they were in the 1960s. 



SUPER GLUES
Do not use Super Glues to assemble an engine mount, shock cord mount, to glue on fins or a launch lug. 
CA glues do have a limited place in model rocket construction.
Super Glues (CA Glues) work well for hardening up the inside edges of body tubes. Not the entire interior, but about 3/16" in from the top of the tube. 
Super glues can be used to harden and strengthen a card stock reducer shroud or nozzle after it is glued onto the model. 

Many Modelers "tack" a fin on with CA glue then follow with wood glue fillets. 
The problem - The CA glue wicks into the root edge. Even a small drop of CA glue will spread, farther than you'd think. Wood glue fillets won't soak into an area covered with CA glue. If you are impatient, use the "double glue" method when gluing on a fin.

Super Glues dry hard and become brittle over time. Fins and launch lugs can pop off later on.
Never "set" a knot in a shock cord or shroud line with CA Glue. The line or cord will become too stiff and will crack in two!

BEACON FABRI-TAC GLUE
This glue works well gluing plastic adapters or plastic boat tails into body tubes. It also works well gluing in nose cone shoulder bases. This glue is acetone based and is fairly thick like the plastic glue from the 1960s and 70s. Fabri-Tac is not recommended for fine work, like the Mercury Redstone, Little Joe II or Saturn V plastic tower assembly. 



HOT GLUE GUNS - Hot glue guns have no place in general model rocket construction! Hot glue guns have been used in the FlisKits stacked styrofoam cup models. 

Super Glue DO's and DON"TS

We've all seen it before - 
First timers want to build a super strong rocket. "Super Glues make it super and stronger, right?" WRONG!

WOOD GLUES
For LPR rockets, use white or wood glues for most of the wood to Kraft paper construction.
Don't use School Glues. Those are meant to be washed out of a child's clothes.
Elmer's White Glue is thinner than it once was, the "New Stronger Formula" doesn't allow couplers and engine mounts to slide into position like it did years ago. Couplers can "lock" in the wrong position.


PLASTIC GLUES
Use a real plastic glue for plastic to plastic or plastic to wood joints. 
"Kid Safe" tube plastic glues won't hold up at launch. Get the red tube glue, the stuff that stinks of Acetone. Stay away from the light blue tube plastic glue. 

That or Beacon Fabri-Tac glue for plastic fin cans and plastic adapters to tube joints. Beacon Fabri-Tac has acetone in the mix, essential to slightly breaking down the plastic joint.

When building a plastic tower (Mercury Redstone or Saturn V) use the bottled liquid cement. Look for the screw on top, with a brush in the cap.

SUPER GLUES (also known as CA, CYA or cyanoacrylate adhesives) DON'T use super glues to attach fins or launch lugs. While the initial bond might seem strong, the glue becomes brittle over time.

DON'T "tack" fins down with Super Glue, then come back and add wood glue fillets.
The Super Glue will harden up and seal the root edge of the fin. Thin super glues have a capillary action, they soak in farther than you might think. A wood glue fillet added afterwards can't soak into the hard, CA glue sealed wood.

DON'T use Super Glues to "set" a knot. The glue will run up a shock cord or shroud line making it hard, brittle and very easy to break. A correctly used knot doesn't need a drop of glue to lock it in place.

DO use CA glues to stiffen up card stock shrouds after they are glued in place.
DO use CA glue to strengthen body tube ends. Wipe on with a Q-tip about 1/4" in the inside edge.
Plan ahead - do this after the engine mount is glued in. Remember, wood glue will not soak in or stick to a hard CA glue sealed tube edge.

Glue Filler? Part 1

I see it on the Facebook Rocketry pages once a month.
Somebody asks: "How do I fill the balsa grain?
One or two replies is always: "Use glue! Rub it in and sand it off. I get really smooth fins that way."

I'll be honest, I did this on my first rocket back in 1969. I didn't want to spend 35 cents for a little bottle of the Sanding Sealer that Estes recommended.
After you use a proper filler you probably won't want to go back to using glue on fins.

There seems to be plenty of builders using glue to fill balsa. Maybe I'm missing something?

I cut two small fins from the same scrap piece of 3/32" balsa. I wanted to be sure the balsa grain was consistent between the two pieces.







Wood glue was applied over one side of the fin and smoothed out with an index finger.
Allow to fully dry before thinking of sanding.

Carpenter's Wood Filler is in the next post.

Estes Solo #7288 Build, Part 4, Gluing Things Up

TIP: I've brought this up before -
Beacon Fabri-Tac glue is great for some rocketry applications. Brush-on liquid plastic cement dries too quickly for some things. This Fabri-Tac glue gives you a little more working time. You can find the Fabri-Tac glue at fabric stores and Hobby Lobby.

Be ready - it can be messy. Just like the old plastic cement from a tube, you'll see strings of glue when you pull the tube away from the applied area. It is thick and can fill some gaps.

Here I used it to glue the shoulder cap onto the nose cone.


It's great for Kraft tube and plastic joints.

Gluing plastic adapters to body tubes, gluing plastic boat tails to body tubes and gluing fin cans like this into body tubes.

Estes Solo #7288 Build, Part 3, Engine Mount & Fin Can

The fin can is interesting, there is no internal engine mount tubing. The top of the engine slips into a molded recessed ring at the top. A taller molded ring at the rear. The rear is threaded for the engine retaining ring.

The instructions show a tube of plastic cement used to glue the sides together. I held the sides together and brushed liquid cement on the inside joints.

I used Beacon Fabri-Tac glue on the root edge areas of the fins. Here I marked the root edge with a Sharpie to show where the glue was applied. The fins were slid into place.

More liquid cement was brushed onto the gap at the rear of the fin root edge. Let this glue dry before screwing on the engine retainer.





Here's the finished fin can. The fins with the glider attachment pins are on shown at the top.

As it is now, this fin can looks like the back end a sci-fi rocket.

Back To School Supplies! TIPS

You can pick up some school supplies (rocket building supplies) cheap right now -
I bought glue sticks, get the name brand glue sticks, not the store brand. I also picked up two bottles of school glue. The school glue was $1.00 each, you can probably find them for less.

I wouldn't use school glue for model rocket building - I'm only interested in the nozzles.
The nozzle on the wood glue bottle is meant for woodworking. The open end is too wide for rocket building.




Luckily, the threads and open top on both bottles are the same size.
Blow the school glue out of the school glue nozzle, run water through it and blow it out again.
Screw it on your wood glue bottle and you are ready for more precise glue application!

White (Clear) Glue TIP

At the last club launch a fin was broken off my Dr. Zooch Saturn V.

TIP: When glue is seen on the outside of a rocket, use a white glue that dries clear.
I see this at club launches - a builder uses yellow wood glue for a repair. The glue fillets dry a dull yellow color. That yellow fillet can detract from a clean, light color finished model.

Use yellow glue for inside bonds and initial construction before painting. For a outside visible repair, try using a white glue.

Estes Saturn V #1969 Build, Part 11, Nozzle Assembly

This is the type of glue you should be using  - Bottled liquid plastic cement with the brush attached to the cap.
Tube type plastic cement is iffy and not what it was fifty years ago.

This stuff is very thin and evaporates quickly.




Look at the nozzle halves. One side has small alignment pins, the other side has small holes.


TIP: You can lightly sand the side with the holes, don't sand the side with the alignment pins! That little bit of sanding will give you a better, tighter fit.

I didn't brush the liquid cement onto the side edges. The halves were pressed together and lined up.
Liquid cement was applied to the seam on the inside using the brush.
More cement was brushed on the top, around the pins.





Here's one of the finished nozzles.

The new nozzle fit is very good. You really have to look for the seam joints on the outside.





Assembly time so far:
 4:50 minutes previous
 0:15 minutes this post
 5:05 total

Adam Savage Glue Guide

Charley Nash posted this link on the Estes Mocel Rocket page on Faceboook:

Adam Savage (Mythbusters) gives a rundown on different glues and their use.
To read the article: CLICK HERE

In the comments, Robert K. Wingate added: 
"BTW, what he says about hot glue is good, but he doesn't mention why we in the rocketry hobby avoid it like the plague. A friendly word of advice to teachers instructing kids in a rocketry unit...hot glue is a crafter's glue. You can't get away with using it to attach rocket fins to the body tube. The heat from the motor will cause a hot glue joint to soften and fail. Fins will fall off, every time."

CA Glue For Model Rocket Assembly?

Super Glues are known by different names - Crazy Glue, Cyanoacrylate Glue, CA Glue and CYA Glue.

On the Facebook Model Rocketry Fanatic page -
Someone asked about using CA glue for model rocket construction.
My response: "CA glue can get brittle over time. Not great for rocket construction."

There is actually more to it than that - 
Some builders use CA glue to tack pieces together, then come back later and add wood glue fillets.
The problem: If you tack down a centering ring with a super glue, it could "seal" the area where the CA glue has soaked in. Water based wood glue can't permeate or soak into the Kraft tube and centering ring edges. 
Wood glues dry a bit more flexible than the hard, brittle Super Glues.

Some instructions will tell you to put a little glue on a knot to prevent it from unraveling. A drop of super glue will run up the tied lines and make them brittle. If you use the right knot, it won't come undone!  
Imagine trying to make a Tri-Fold shock cord mount using Super Glue. After Super Glue dries, you can't use more Super Glue to adhere it inside the body tube. It won't stick to itself! Wood glues will.

I do use a wipe of Super Glue around the inside of a body tube to strengthen the ends - but only after the assembly is complete and no wood glue will be near it. I've seen a picture where a builder was dripping CA glue inside both ends of the tube to harden it. There was CA glue all over where the engine mount was to be glued. The wood glue or epoxy won't stick to the dried CA glue area.

I have used Super Glue to harden a card stock shroud - After assembly, after the shroud is glued on the model with wood or white glue.

Years back I tried to assemble a rocket using Super Glues. A year after it was finished, the upper launch lug broke loose at ignition, it turned on the launch rod and pinwheeled.
Some of us have made the "Build it all with Super Glue" mistake.

There is a problem with Forums and Face Book pages. Somebody poses a question and you get ten different solutions. Don't guess. When in doubt, read and follow the instructions. Well, that is if the glue recommendations in the instructions are clear.

These opinions are based on my personal experience. I don't claim to have all the answers, but have been building rockets for almost 50 years.

I am aware of Aerotech assembly using Super Glues. The fins on an Aerotech model lock on very tight.

Quest Striker AGM Build, Part 7, Fin Gluing

The body tubes and fins got a shot of filler/primer and smooth sanding.

The root edge gluing areas were scraped with an old X-Acto blade for best adhesion. The troughs in the tail cone were also scraped to remove the filler/primer.

The question was asked earlier - How do you glue balsa fins onto a plastic tail cone?

On the left - the area that makes contact with the tail cone was marked with pencil. This area will get the Beacon Fari-Tac glue. The glue contains acetone that should give better adhesion where balsa contacts the plastic. The rest of the balsa root edges (above and below the gray pencil marks) will get wood glue. Above the pencil marking, the fin is against the body tube. Below the penciled area, the adhesive backed paper wrap adheres better to the balsa than bare plastic would.

I used my Odd'l Rockets FinTool to line up and hold the fins while the two different glues dried.









The smaller forward fins are glued on in line with the low fins.

A wrap of masking tape was used to line up the bottom corner of the trailing edge.

Shock Cord and Glue TIP

An email TIP from Bruce Levison,

"I prefer to use white glue to fasten shock cord mounts into my rockets, that way if they get stuck in a tree they come down after a few rains."

 "I also use white glue to fasten engine mounts since this adhesive has less of a tenancy to grab than many others. The old rocketeers rule of thumb: white glue inside yellow glue outside." 

Thanks Again,
Bruce Levison  NAR # 69055 L2

The first tip makes great sense. 
Yellow glues are waterproof when dry, white glues remain water soluble after they dry.

Glue Bottle Nozzle Switch TIP

These small "Goes On Purple, Dries Clear" Elmer's glue bottles were on sale at a local office supply store. I didn't buy them for the color changing glue.

A large bottle of yellow Carpenter's Glue could last me for a few years. The nozzle tips don't last that long and can be replaced.

On the left is the larger, flat nozzle found on a Carpenter's Wood Glue bottle. You can use this nozzle to build a rocket but you won't have much control over the glue flow.

The pointed nozzles from a smaller white glue bottle (school or the purple glue) will fit the threads on the Carpenter's Yellow Glue bottle.

This idea has been covered on the blog before, but it's been while. New readers could find this helpful.

Estes Puma #7256 Build, Part 5, Dowel Guns and Wing Glue Line

GOTCHA: The instructions say to cut the dowel into 1" section. They should be cut into 1 1/2" long pieces. The outside edge of the wing is 1" wide, if the dowels were 1" long the dowel wouldn't extend forward beyond the joint.
In a blog comment, BAR Geezer mentioned this mistake in the instructions. Scigs 30 also found the error on his TRF build.

The tabs on the wing joint needed filling.
After sanding and another shot of primer/filler the dowel was glued on under the joint.
The dowel serves as a gun detail but also strengthens the joint.

The primer on the wing glue line was scraped off for a stronger glue joint.
On the left a line of glue was set down the line.
TIP: On the right side I'm evening out the line by pinching my thumb and forefinger together making a upside down "V". Run this down the glue line making an even bead of glue.

The center line of the wing was pressed into the glue bead.